It's been a few months but I'm back. Which makes it hard to realize that it took me just over an hour to trace the references in the letter I posted yesterday (which was really March 24 - 3 months ago).
The easiest thing for me to do was run a timeline for the information as I found it which you can see below. When the marriage of John Vince (father referenced in the letter) and Annie Coates (mother listed in the letter) was not showing up anywhere and I discovered his mother as Cordelia Clubb, I thought perhaps that George had meant not mother but grandmother. After tracing the Clubb family a bit, it was clear that was not the case. So I then though Annie and John could have had George out of wedlock or she passed shortly after his birth. Upon finding the 1881 England Census - the question was resolved. Annie Coates was George's birth mother in 1881 and passed away in 1884.
1832 est. birth Emma Coates
1838 estimated birth Alfred Clubb
1841 estimated birth year Susanna L. Clubb, maiden name not found yet
1846 birth John Vince to to George Vince & Mary White Kirkham
1846 birth Ann Coates Vince
1852 estimated birth year Cordelia Clubb - mother Susannah Club, father Alfred Clubb
** 1881 census lists George H. Vince newborn to John Vince & Ann Vince with an Emma Coates 49 also in the household as a lodger
1881 birth George Vince east grinstead sussex england
1881 march 13 birth Xula (zula) Pearl Sawyer Vince birthplace Iowa (possibly to Ruel Lynn Sawyer & Jane Elizabeth Dubbs)
1884 death Ann Vince (which somehow becomes the listed birth year or George on his tombsone)
** 1891 Census - lists George H. Vince son (10 years) of John Vince & Cordelia Clubb Vince
1901 george vince visited kent england stayed with the Hodges family (1901 census)
1906 - Immigration Manifest - John Vince & Cordelia SS Canada from Liverpool
1907 est. death George's grandfather George Vince
1909 Pearl married George
1930 US Federal Census - George & family matching names in the letter
1934 feb 1 death Pearl (on find a grave) Olivet Presbyterian Church Cemetery
1940 census George a widower
1954 death George - Olivet Presbyterian Church Cemetery
1996 death Colin Ivan Vince
Now, there was also a reference to the Lexden Mill which is the Lexden Flour Mill, Lexden, Essex England. According to the 1851 England Census - John Vince was age 5, living with parents George Vince & Mary (White Kirkham) and family: George (9), Louisa (7) and John (5) and a miller and a servant (George Lambert & Emma Fisher).
Still no obvious direct relationship to my family.
So as I've waited 3 months to return to this - it's taking me a little time to wrap my ahead around where I left off, thus the thought process I was wandering down is lost. That's the bad news. The good news - my cousin Alan reached out to our cousin Dennis in Australia (Pinboroughs everywhere) and summed it up as indicated below via email. It's a long trail to follow so the short answer is this - - sometimes, a relative is not a relative, just a shared last name. And sometimes, you just still aren't sure.
Want more? Grab a dramamine and read on.
"March 25 2015 - from Dennis: I found the census of the family in question and the place of birth of GH is East Grinstead Sussex, A bit of a geography lesson here Sussex is right down the bottom of England and our tribe comes from halfway up on the hump bit nearly 200 k’s away, John his father was born in Colchester which is getting closer about 90 K’s away, John was the son of Henry also born in Essex in 1824 at a place called Great Horkesley just outside of Colchester, His dad was also a Henry born 1782 in Little Horkesley in turn his dad was James born 1751 in Great Horkesley and his dad was a John and we are not short of a John Methinks this is a completely disconnected tribe from ours there were many Vince Tribes in England.
As an aside I still think the tribe of Vinces that I have at the start living in Weybread in about 1730 could, with accent on the could be tied up with ours,( Weybread is about 30 K’s from Wicklewood ) for the only reason they have an abundance of Samuels and Henry’s in that tribe as we do.
Without looking what you sent, (two hands not connected) it appears Ann Johns wife in childbirth or just after as she died at East Grinstead in the Dec Q 1884 aged 38 and Anna Gertrude Vince died Mar Q 1886 aged 2 so Ann would have been born about 1846 in Essex so John and Ann both came from Essex and sure enough there was Ann Coates there was born in the Dec Q 1841 at Tendring in Essex which if her makes her approaching the truth in 1881 with a certain amount of caution or Ann was not Ann Coates !! now strangely a John Vince married a Anne Partridge at Tendring in Dec 1854 If we look at the 1851 census Emma is aged 19 Ann is aged 7 living in their POB Brocking which is in the Reg Dist Of Braintree so the Tendring one is out but it shows the proliferation of Vinces. Now in the Braintree R D we have Ann Coates born Mar 1844 which is her, Can marry at 14 so start 1858 to 1881 and sure enough John Vince married Ann Coates Mar Q 1879 at Brighton which is in Sussex as is East Grinstead.
Book opened Book Closed
Must away the Kangaroos need feeding!!! Dennis"
"March 27, 2015 - Dennis to Alan
Alan Tell Laurie about how we are indebted to dear old cousin Betty for our correct information I remember going to her house in Norwich before she caught her last train and she had cases of all the names ofVince’s born in England from 1837 to the late 1970’s when she left the Government Record Office where she worked nearly all her working life they were all sorted out into counties and there were thousands of Vince names. It was she who explained to me that us common folk did not use surnames until the Middle Ages and the name should be Vincent and it gradually in some families got whittled down to Vince via Vincen etc and that the first record of Vince in England was in the year 1674, And if you think the Vince name is popular try my mothers name of Piercy, not only is the name in every county in England it is spelt in many different ways I have found in my tree alone 18 different spellings even have a Persee and a Percee and so on"
"March 28, 2015 - Me to Dennis & Alan in italics. Dennis's notes back in bold:
Hi Alan & Dennis -
I came to the same conclusion yesterday that George must be from another line of Vinces in the Essex area (where his grandfather lived & parents before) and that Alice must have found him while doing genealogy research on Vinces at the SLC Temple (see images below). Now - it seems I found myself in quite the rabbit hole chasing these clues - so many Johns, Georges, Annes, Williams, Elizabeths and Marys sharing the same last names! (all monarchy induced I presume.) I think the late Alice noted down all the Vince’s that she came across on her travels I have many other tribes on my computer including many Vince families but I only collect them from the identified county and the surrounding ones, when you get back to the 1700’s it was extremely rare for us common folk to stray more walking distance from their home parish in fact if you were working class you had to get a settlement certificate to stay in another parish in case you fell on hard times because then your original parish would have to take care of you, The exceptions being unless you were caught thieving and you finished up in Virginia, Then when you Americans got upset with the British the thieves and vagabonds were sent down here which upset the indigenous population somewhat and to this day they are still upset, hence when we celebrate Australia Day on the 26th January which was the day in 1788 when the First Fleet arrived in Sydney Cove the indigenous population call it Invasion Day.
I found this info between FamilySearch.org & Ancestry:
- 1881 George Hebern Vince born to John Vince & Anne Coates Vince in Sussex Where does the Herbern come into it looked at Family Search it is Herbert could not find it as Herbern
- 1846ish John Vince (1845-1907) born to George Vince (1816-) & Mary White Kirkham (1805-1873) Lexden Essex
Also born to George & Mary: George James (b abt 1842), Louisa (b abt 1844)
- 1816 George Vince born to William Vince (1776-1827) & Ann Mead (1781-1823) Essex
Also born to William & Ann - Ann, Charles, Mary Ann, Eliza (1851 census)
- 1776 William Vince born to James Vince (1737-1816) & Ann Smith (1745-) Essex
then, a Dead End
So Alice's Norfolk origins and the Essex Vinces paths don't seem to cross - unless one is traveling to London... Which if I follow the postcards Alice kept from the early 1900s - which feature Diss, Ipswich, Felixstowe, Woolverstone, London, and more - one must pass through Essex - so if she would pass through Essex to London The train would have stopped at Colchester but not long enough to start a family- then perhaps hidden among the people we have yet to discover, or the 1st, 2nd or 3rd or other unknown marriages with children of varying parents, there could be a connection waiting. Though it is more simple to assume they just share the same last name.
Did Solomon Vince have any brothers? If he was christened in 1751, perhaps James Vince of 1737 is his brother or step or half? Sure did, No James a Jacob which sometimes changes to James but all siblings accounted for, I can open my tree on Ancestry to Laurie if he likes might save the cost of aspirins
Then I remembered some genealogy info down at dad's and decided to dig through a few folders. It is quite possible you have already seen these items - as amongst the folders was an amazing set of documents you sent to Bob back in 2002. (What hours you must have spent at the library, on microfiche, searching ledgers and more before the Internet made it so expeditious! Impressive.)
Alice - was looking into - the following Vinces in St. Marylebone Middlesex England
1) John Vince & Anne Downs md 6 nov 1677
2) Henry Chivers Vince & Mary Sainsbury md 26 Apr 1738
3) John Vince & Rachel Roper md. 20 July 1806
4) Thomas Vince & Alice Boulton md. 18 Jan 1777
So I looked them up ...
1) Did not find exact match. But - found John Vince & Anne White m 26 Oct 1690 in London and references for John Vince with spouse Sarah Ann or Mary Ann
Also found m1742 John Vince & Ann Boreham (-1796) in Essex children John (1749-), James (1751-, married Mary Colin 1776, child Henry 1783-1858) & Frances (1754-) Also found a different "story" tree reference for a John Vince (-1763) with children Elizabeth, John, Frances & Mary - likely the same.
2) In another tree on Ancestry - I find that Henry Chivers had a brother William born 1706 or 1709 - mother Frances Chivers (b1675) father Vince b 1680 no details - this clan of Wiltshire England
3) Found references to John Vince & Rachel Roper married 1806. And also an 1891 census with a 25 year old John, Rachel & Charles (5) living in Ipswich - clearly not the same people, but related? (Census has name as Vine corrected to Vince)
4) found their marriage listing. Also found reference to Alice as Alice Margaret
Of Note - I came across a Henry Vince (aka Vinson) born 1655 Norfolk England with parents William Vince (b. 1632 or 1639?) & Anne, the same Henry Vince seems to have had a spouse named Mary Betts. Then I remembered on Alan's tree Robert Vinson aka Vince (christened 1714) - and that led me to - Robert Vince b1680 Hackford Norfolk England d. 1715 Norfolk - Father & Mother Henry Vince b1655 and Mary Betts b.1655. Robert was married to Elizabeth Wright 91683-1730) with children Thomas (1712-1790), Robert (1714-1784), Samuel (1716-). These are ours
Now - three hours later my head is about to explode the connection is still in question as I think there are two trees being followed. Essex & Norfolk. But - why would Alice be pursuing her family name in St. Marylebone Middlesex England? And believe a George to be her cousin?
It is the unique middle name - Hebern, also shared by Walter If the other is Herbert it blows that theory out of the water- that gives me pause that a connection might be awaiting us - either related by blood or marriage (to widower and children took Vince name). Someday, when I get through all these wonderful letters, postcards and scribblings, another clue may emerge but upon quick glance, she either did not continue to correspond with George or ceased to collect his letters.
In the meantime - here's a new curiosity that caught my attention while trying to find the connection - Did Solomon Vince have a 3rd wife? If Susannah Brighting passed in 1792 and he didn't marry Susan Cowles Garron until 1829 - 37 years seems an awful long time to be unmarried with 4 children.... A Ha!! What was Solomon doing twixt the death of S B on the 26th Dec 1792 and his marriage to S C on the 15th May 1829 he was living with another mans wife that's what !!! He was waiting for the cuckolded Robert Cowles to die which he did on the 23 Dec 1837 A look at the Besthorpe registers for the baptisms of the tree children born to S V and SC between 1795 and 1802 is interesting. In those days us common folk did not get divorced it cost too much so as my dear old Mum would have said “ Solomon and Susannah the second would be have been living in sin”
Now, back to my other job, work! Please ask Laurie not to use the word “work” I am allergic to it it brings me out in a rash!!"